tv [untitled] April 9, 2012 10:30am-11:00am EDT
firm, have you exactly the same up chances as the any other firm. m other u.s. firms have visited tunisia and we have been talking to them and exposing the different opportunities that exist and i think they have good chances to win. they don't need favored treatment. they have good technology, good know how and tunisia can benefit from that. the second question regarding education is a very important one. i talked about the program on job training which is one important program destined to fix some of the problems we have of with our education problem. but you're right, one of the 13 projects i said that there are 13 structure reform projects is about education in general. education has been very important in tunisia. we have a high literacy rate. we have a good education
program. we have 500,000 students in the university today, which is 5% of the population approximately. as a matter of fact, we want to turn our problems into an opportunity because today, we're graduating approximately 70,000 new graduates every year. and we have a problem with employing people with college degrees. we have 200,000 people who have college degrees and do not find jobs for them. and that's a vet very painful situation for us. so the reform of the education system is a very important issue and thank you for mentioning it. but it is mentioned in the program. it's one of the 13 programs where we're going to undergo massive restructuring program. one last point regarding education is that we are cautious that anything that touches education is medium and
long-term. so it's not you have something we will be able to do in one year. but there are many things that we will start in this government and that will be carried later on by future governments. >> i just want to say that i know that marwan is sitting in the second row and he's passionate about the need to really rethink the whole basis for education systems in the whole of the region, not simply in terms of structure but in terms of how they approach learning and teaching because it's an interesting phenomenon that in this region, the more education you have, the harder it becomes for you to get a job, which is sort of actually the opposite of what you see in other regions. so i'm very glad, and i think marwan wants to make a two-handed intervention before i turn top nael. >> thanks for giving me the opportunity, masood, but my answer --
>> marwan. >> my concern with all the education reform efforts in the arab world including what i've heard so far from you is that them are concentrating on the engineering aspects, the technical aspects of the problem. trying to increase you know, scores in math and sciences, trying to build more schools, et cetera. what we don't hear enough about is the value system. are we teaching our students to criticize, to question, to treat, you know, truths as relative rather than absolute? are they being taught scientific reasoning? these are all issues that if they are in the old systems taught how to do that, you know, the fear was that they would then be able to criticize their own governments whether secular or religious and that is why they have not been taught that.
is there a realization that in today's world unless you teach people the elements and the value of diversity and tolerance and acceptance of different points of views and accepting that what you are being taught in class is not necessarily the truth, is there a realization in all of our countries that unless we do that, we're not going to produce productive economies, we're not going to solve the unemployment program or are we still talking about investment in the technical aspects, in the engineering aspects but not in the value system? >> thank you. mondher, did you want to respond to that? >> yes. thank you for making the point that's a very important point. now, there are like just like in the economy we're facing special circumstances today. we're not in a country sitting where we can have the luxury to plan and do everything at ease. we come out of the revolution
with very specific short-term demands. and a long-term society project. so just like in the economy weep develop two tracks, a sustainable track and a short-term urgent track in education, we will have to do the same thing. there are students today who have degrees, and it's too late for us at least to think of programs such as you've been described. because these kinds of things start from the primary school, the secondary school. we have 500,000 students in the university system already. they'll be graduating soon. so our worry to be frank with you, and to be practical is to find ways to give them employeeability to try to improve their skills so that it meets the demands of the job market. now, we have in tunisia in our,
of course, if you make a revolution, you have to build a new society based on new values of democracy, transparency, criticism, critical thinking, that's what will make better citizens, not just better employees and we are talking about that, and that we will do just like in the constitution in the context of a consensus and general discussion because we don't want to indoctrinenate also a model of society in the educational system. we want to engage a global discussion that where islamists, secularists all components of society will come in and discuss about the kind of educational system we would like to do. so the short term programs for education almost include these technical programs and means in order to improve employeeability. the long-term programs will have
to go on the basis you just described. >> nael. >> i think the actually in jordan we have a good experience in investment in education. although taking into considerationing what dr. marwan said but in jordan, we don't have oil or gas. we have -- we have manpower. we have in jordan 25 universities. 30% of the students are from abroad from the gulf countries mainly. and the manpower wanted in the gulf countries mainly. and thousands of jordanian after graduated, they go to gulf countries to work. but i think it's still the problem of skills and training.
and to direct the education toward a special program to build a special skills wanted inside the country and outside the country i think this is a good opportunity for the -- these countries to invest really in education. >> you had the general point and then there were also what about the role of the military, military aid versus development aid? how can you convince everyone and can you do tourism with the salafi party as well as your partners? easy questions. >> if i may say something personal number one about education, the only investment that i personally have ever done in my life is in an education counsel institutionings in egypt. my wife and myself have a school. and i'm just saying that to say that the whole idea of a
different model of education is so vital. we went out and spent three years researching here in the u.s. and the uk and we came up with something we called the creative curriculum and so on and i can give some details. and i cannot agree with you more. and when we provided the service to kids in egypt, the demand was amazing. it's -- i don't think we need to wait for very long to actually rethink the whole modeling of education in our countries because there are already things done out there. there are different debates. there are models that have been tried. there are school institutions. we have associations that are helping us, training our teachers and so on and so forth. so my thinking is hopefully in egypt, we will go with this at the faster track because the education system in egypt is just in an amazing need for reform and development at all
levels, but i think the whole modeling thing is very much aligned with a statement we put out in the 40 that's not yet very famous. we put out a statement called the renaissance program. and we of course, took -- and again another personal note. i think the we are all indebted to tunis in particular and i am personally a student. so maybe we will internalize that affiliation, yani. we have a lot to learn from our tunesidan brothers. in that statement, the renaissance project, we state very clearly that we need to rethink key models behind education and a number of other endeavors. and just education, health, security and so on, we need to rethink the modeling, not just build institutions along the same or modeling after the same old model. so i couldn't agree with you
more. and thank you very much. now to the easy questions. getting the military out of the committee of egypt, i don't think we do that will by colliding with the military. we do that gradually. and this has been actually the subject of negotiations with military. the military has' certain percentage of the economy that differs depending on how you look at it. if you look at the assets they hold, the real estate lands and so on and so forth, it's a bit larger than this you if look at it from a productive gdp kind of perspective. till it is significant. what we would like to do is actually expand the civil part of the economy large enough so that that percentage gets smaller. and with time rethinking the military mind-set. but by all means, the fgp does not intend to go into a coalition with the military over that subject. we actually want to learn about
countries that moved from a military kind of a paradigm to civil like spain and we had actually one workshop with people who brought us like the biggest lessons in that experience. which goes also along the lines with the liberal business and so on. we went to south africa and we tried to learn about their reconciliation program. we are not i think in any position not in our party in our country we are not in any position to exclude anyone now. we are not in any position to go into unnecessary premature kind of fights for no reason. we 2003 like to include everyone who has even been part of the business apparatus in the old regime so long as they accept the new rules and sort of ease them into and think about some of the them and some of the discussions said hey, these were the rules. you know, the mubarak term, these were in the rules. in order to do something big in
egypt, you had to go through this -- in his book, he lists 32 families in egypt. imagine how narrow the base is, and they tell us we had to go to these 32 families. that was the system. otherwise you wouldn't do the business in egypt. how can you incriminate now after the fact the behavior that was more or less the rule? so what we would like to do is gradually stop it going forward, create all kinds of new measures of transparency, checks and balances and so on but try to ease these people into it, as well. there is no point in running them out of the country. and nothing will happen, nothing good will come out of it, by the way. the tourism industry, one of the first meetings we had as a party with the different industrial teams in egypt was with the owners of the tourism industry. we had like two huge town hall
meetings, and they of course, came up with all these concerns. what are you going to do about people in swimming suits and beaches and liquor and stuff like that. and our answer to them was we actually would like not only to maintain the tourism industry. we would like to expand it and make it aligned with the promise of egypt. you know, that the repeat tourism in egypt is the one of the lowest in the world although this is an amazing country for those who have visited. but how many people would like to come again? very few. not because of -- it's because of what happens when you go, the experience you get as we say in business. you just go see the pyramids once in your life. the repeat business in egypt, the repeat tourism in egypt last i've seen was 4% versus france, which was 60%. you about to the champs deesay, you want to go every year. you send your kids on their
hoony moon to the champs delee say. you don't accepted them to luxor. so no, we want to work with that industry to improve it, okay? >> very good. let's have another round of questions. i think i stopped sitting in the front row here. so if we could bring the -- >> so questions now to tunis. and jordan. >> okay. >> thank you very much, masood. i think it was music to my ears listening to starting with mondher and finishing with ali. the revolution started not because of food and bread on the table. it started for dignity and freedom. my worry with a plan being a fantastic plan that's been put forward here of the pillars with objectives, the same thing with the way you're doing for the
next 12, 13 months, what you want to do, i this i you're going to have bread and food revolution coming to you if you think you're going to go through that and it's going to be done. i think as obama said last year, this is history in the making. it's the beginning of history. you are starting from zero. start from zero in a world where everybody's bankrupt, we have crisis from europe to united states and elsewhere in terms of financial crisis, economic crisis and even sovereign crisis and that perspective. you need to kick start the economies. the only way you're going to kick start these economies, you're not going to have stability coming just like that because stability is not going to come through like normal process through economic model. it's going to be through sustainability. you need to create sustainability, it means immediate jobs creation. it's not a question of we're going to do this for you. you've got to the create jobs in the next one year to why don't we say the two and a half years.
if you don't do that, we're going to have revolutions big, big time. i would look at egypt because what happens although we thank all of us as arabs we should thank the tunisiians where we are today. all of us as arabs should be paying taxes to tunis for the next 50 years. >> how about that. >> i think he'll be happy to take it. >> but i mean -- >> there is an envelope. >> by the way, i take 10%. no, egypt i think being serious, egypt is where things would happen. if egypt is successful, it's all the 350, 400 million arabs will be successful in the future. so egypt is going to play the role. all the arabs have an interest in egypt to get it right. and to get it right you need to create jobs immediately. to create jobs, i don't think you're going to do it the way you put it forward because it's not going to happen.
you need 20 million jobs in the next two to three years and you have to create pem. the only way you're going to do that is infrastructure. you need to build big-time infrastructure in the next two to three years. it's not going to be easy. i was happy that you guys are here to push u.s. egyptians to push here jobs, jobs, jobs. that's what you want. and this place here, they can help you. they can't pay you but there is only one place who can do that for you. we have the money in the gulf each year 200 to $300 billion. we thank the iranian problem and everything else, the oil price today $125, $130. that increase sitting here most of it is going to be treasury bills sitting here doing nothing. that money in the next five years if we have basically $500 billion across the board $100 billion each year coming through for the countries in transition to create jobs through investment. not through giving you a loan, not through donation.
investment and investment infrastructures anybody who knows lady in the back, business 15 to 20 years return. so you need that investment. that's what you've got to push for for to go forward. because my problem is you're not going to be successful with what you've said. you said something about smes. marwan and i have been fighting this elsewhere on this issue of critical thinking. the reason the smes did not work in egypt, critical thinking was not allowed. for entrepreneurship, you need critical thinking. it's not do do with skills, it's values. first question when i was talking about the constitution, it's a silly obnoxious question. but we talk about basic human rights. all our rights are protected under the constitution. now, work muslim brotherhood accept for a muslim born
egyptian changes say when he becomes 20, says i want to be christian or buddhist or atheist or would the constitution protect his rights? those are the questions that need to be answered on a long-term basis. that is critical thinking being allowed to go through. i think from that aspect -- thank you. >> thank you, walid. i think the gentleman the back who had his hand up from the beginning. >> thank you. i have a question. for the last decade tunisia has not applied the boycott against israel. >> could you repeat that point? >> sure. over the last decade tunisia has not applied the arab league boycott against israel and there have been stories in the american media that some members of different islamic parties in
tunisia are now saying that the boycott should be reinstated. and i wanted to find out what the brotherhood's position was on this, especially considering that we're going to move forward with the free-trade agreement and any free-trade agreement needs to be approved by the u.s. congress. >> that's a good question. the gentleman over here. >> hello. i'd be interested to know the economics of -- sorry -- there is a lot of talk over here about the support of gulf countries to islamic groups, be it in t tunisia, jordan, even my country of egypt. if you could expand on, that i would be grateful. expanding on walid's question, actually, there is a general -- a general feeling over here that the west in general has -- even
in egypt or most of our countries, that many of those countries have taken on the economic dimension of the arab spring countries as the only tool through which they could influence on coming and new regimes coming out of such revolutions. based on your experience and on your interaction with such factors, do you agree with the statements and if you do agree, how do you plan to deal with it? thank you. >> so just to be clear, the two questions that you wanted to raise were the -- the second one about the extent to which you feel that the panel cysts agree that the economic lever is the one that is being used. [ inaudible ] do you find that there is a use of the economic lever by the west, i think you said, as a way
of influencing the policies of the new governments? there's one question over there. >> thank you. i'm from georgetown university. my question is for -- of relevant for both the doctors. i think we've tended to underemphasize economics. i mean, semply dignity and freedom were important, but it's no coincidence that the uprising began in the interior of the country. the egyptian slogan was bread and social justice. i haven't heard anything about social justice. i've heard there will be an attempt in a keynesian mode to establish 100,000 jobs in tunisia, but i heard none of that with regard to egypt. so, for example, will under your program and leadership unions be
able to be independent and have the right to strike? and what kinds of social justice measures will you have for the 40% of people who are living on the margins at or below poverty? because i think that was a very important part of the revolutions in tunisia, egypt, and elsewhere. thank you. >> that's good. nour questions now. maybe this time we'll switch the order since there are more questions. great to start here. >> a very egyptian kind of a joke. creating jobs in infrastructure, i thought i said that looking at three streams of programs, one of which is this 50 to 100 projects, $1 billion each. the second the smes and the third is the infrastructure. we're actually looking at infrastructure as a stream in its own right. you're absolutely right.
i think this is where we will probably in the next year or two start to kick off some really megaprojects on the infrastructure side to get the economy going. it's not going to work with the 1 million to 2 million jobs you'd like to create with the sme program if it's successful because of the pressure from the government bureaucracy as well. that needs somehow to shrink. so i definitely agree with you. on the social justice issue, i agree because that's a keyish shu. but we have to pay tribute to the revolution succeeded i think because it everyonized some basic human values. basic human values. it didn't recognize any narrowly defined kind of interest. hence social justice would simply be a very integral
objective of the revolution and any objective of anyone serving the revolution. i have to state my view they were elected because people felt this is the party that could serve. if they fail, they would be elected out. the values of the revolution are more dominant in my mind than the agenda of anything. i agree with you 100%. parts of the program is to empower the civil society with all the factions, not just the unions. that's one important point. by shrinking the government and lifting some of its grip on society. we're trying to also introduce mechanisms by which people have access to jobs, education, health, economic opportunities and so on. hence creating social justice by working on the jew tishl system as well, so on and so forth. this was maybe a very abstrkt kind of a statement, but if you
look carefully, it is intended to design and achieve them. the economic lever, i think if i may just make a comment. at least my own experience so far, i have seen people very interested in the arab spring in all its aspects -- the economic, the cultural, the political and so on. i have been engaged and been engaged and i've been in the this this country very, very long. i've seen an a renewed energy in sbrabing with the arab world after the revolution that goes beyond the economic issues. i don't think it's just the economic lever. i think it's part of a broader dialogue that i think ksh this event to me is sort of a historic kickoff of the dialogue. i think it goes beyond that. >> there was one other question i think the gentleman had which
was how did you find the sort of -- what is your experience vis-a-vis the gulf countries in terms of their interest in actually supporting the process of transition? >> i think there are two levels to the issue of the gulf country with the arab spring. one sea level the immediate perception, at least, that the arab spring is bringing a destabilizing factor to the region. and i wouldn't blame anyone for feeling that way, because if you lived in the arab world in the last year, it is a very volatile kind of environment, which would make anybody nervous. on the other hand, the economic, cultural tie between the gulf and the rest of the arab world is actually the core of the relationship. we're hoping in egypt to calm down the concerns and worries by
making two statements that we are very sincere about. number one, we are in no mood to expo export anything to anyone because we understand that revolutions are not what you export. change from any society has to come from within. we are not at all interested in instituting or pushing any change in any place outside of our own country. the second message is we definitely would like to integrate with the gulf countries, not just on economic issue, not just to get investments but a much broader scale, as well, because we see these evolutions as sort of a civilization kind of a project, if you will. and we are not going to go i it alone. we are going to go it with the rest of the world. and starting with our region. i don't think the gulf states are anywhere from the